Comments on: Digitizing parliamentary procedure http://blog.citizendium.org/2007/04/29/digitizing-parliamentary-procedure/ Weblog about the Citizendium project and its Citizens. Wed, 07 Jan 2009 04:51:01 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: David Gerard http://blog.citizendium.org/2007/04/29/digitizing-parliamentary-procedure/#comment-10817 David Gerard Wed, 02 May 2007 19:30:22 +0000 http://blog.citizendium.org/2007/04/29/digitizing-parliamentary-procedure/#comment-10817 Oh yes, I do know that's what he means. See my <a href="http://davidgerard.co.uk/notes/2007/05/02/revealed-why-the-community-is-on-crack/" rel="nofollow">latest arrogant pontification</a>. My personal favoured reset at the moment is (a) the LambdaMOO cure - return of the wizards to lay the smackdown (b) said smackdown being to ruthlessly cull all process that violates the six rules I flag as the fundamental policy. But I'm eager for suggestions. Oh yes, I do know that’s what he means. See my latest arrogant pontification.

My personal favoured reset at the moment is (a) the LambdaMOO cure - return of the wizards to lay the smackdown (b) said smackdown being to ruthlessly cull all process that violates the six rules I flag as the fundamental policy. But I’m eager for suggestions.

]]> By: David Gerard » Blog Archive » Revealed! Why the community is on crack. http://blog.citizendium.org/2007/04/29/digitizing-parliamentary-procedure/#comment-10811 David Gerard » Blog Archive » Revealed! Why the community is on crack. Wed, 02 May 2007 17:19:41 +0000 http://blog.citizendium.org/2007/04/29/digitizing-parliamentary-procedure/#comment-10811 [...] Sanger is trying to work around this on Citizendium, as advised by Shirky’s main source, Wilfred Bion’s Experiences In [...] [...] Sanger is trying to work around this on Citizendium, as advised by Shirky’s main source, Wilfred Bion’s Experiences In [...]

]]> By: Larry Sanger http://blog.citizendium.org/2007/04/29/digitizing-parliamentary-procedure/#comment-10796 Larry Sanger Wed, 02 May 2007 14:38:02 +0000 http://blog.citizendium.org/2007/04/29/digitizing-parliamentary-procedure/#comment-10796 David, I think you may have misunderstood Shirky. He wasn't arguing that an Internet community eventually dies at the end of an inevitable life cycle. He was saying that without a constitution and clearly-enforced rules, in other words a rule of law, it chokes itself. Or rather, it finds itself being choked by miscreants. Anyway, that's certainly been my experience with the very many online communities of which I've been a part, so I think Shirky was right about that one. But I've also seen a good many mailing lists that have survived and even thrived for many years now--in large part because of the willingness of a moderator to step in and enforce the rules. David, I think you may have misunderstood Shirky. He wasn’t arguing that an Internet community eventually dies at the end of an inevitable life cycle. He was saying that without a constitution and clearly-enforced rules, in other words a rule of law, it chokes itself. Or rather, it finds itself being choked by miscreants. Anyway, that’s certainly been my experience with the very many online communities of which I’ve been a part, so I think Shirky was right about that one. But I’ve also seen a good many mailing lists that have survived and even thrived for many years now–in large part because of the willingness of a moderator to step in and enforce the rules.

]]> By: David Gerard http://blog.citizendium.org/2007/04/29/digitizing-parliamentary-procedure/#comment-10774 David Gerard Wed, 02 May 2007 07:32:19 +0000 http://blog.citizendium.org/2007/04/29/digitizing-parliamentary-procedure/#comment-10774 The bigger problem with governance of an Internet-based project is that <a href="http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html" rel="nofollow">a group is its own worst enemy</a>. That's a marvellous essay by Clay Shirky, and when I read it I was just nodding my head and going "yep" over and over. An Internet community has a life cycle. It starts, it's good for a while, it chokes itself or falls away. I've seen this happen over and over. The problem comes when the community is not an end in itself but is attached to a purpose. We're seeing that on Wikipedia. That is, I think English Wikipedia's interesting community problems are a wider problem than just Wikipedia having done something wrong. I suspect you'll run into this with Citizendium just the same. How to keep the community focused on the point of the exercise? What level of control does one apply to keep on track without killing off the liveliness? The bigger problem with governance of an Internet-based project is that a group is its own worst enemy. That’s a marvellous essay by Clay Shirky, and when I read it I was just nodding my head and going “yep” over and over. An Internet community has a life cycle. It starts, it’s good for a while, it chokes itself or falls away. I’ve seen this happen over and over.

The problem comes when the community is not an end in itself but is attached to a purpose. We’re seeing that on Wikipedia. That is, I think English Wikipedia’s interesting community problems are a wider problem than just Wikipedia having done something wrong.

I suspect you’ll run into this with Citizendium just the same. How to keep the community focused on the point of the exercise? What level of control does one apply to keep on track without killing off the liveliness?

]]> By: Larry Sanger http://blog.citizendium.org/2007/04/29/digitizing-parliamentary-procedure/#comment-10573 Larry Sanger Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:20:53 +0000 http://blog.citizendium.org/2007/04/29/digitizing-parliamentary-procedure/#comment-10573 Thanks, Ted! Here's the direct URL: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2026.txt Thanks, Ted! Here’s the direct URL: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2026.txt

]]> By: Edward O'Connor http://blog.citizendium.org/2007/04/29/digitizing-parliamentary-procedure/#comment-10572 Edward O'Connor Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:18:33 +0000 http://blog.citizendium.org/2007/04/29/digitizing-parliamentary-procedure/#comment-10572 <blockquote>What I take from your slides is that the IETF (http://www.ietf.org/) has a procedure to come to decisions online.</blockquote> Yes, exactly. <blockquote>But your description of their rules is pretty slight on the details.</blockquote> Indeed -- It's defined in RFC 2026 if you'd like the gory details. <blockquote>There is also nothing about how well their process actually works.</blockquote> In my experience, it works very, very well.

What I take from your slides is that the IETF (http://www.ietf.org/) has a procedure to come to decisions online.

Yes, exactly.

But your description of their rules is pretty slight on the details.

Indeed — It’s defined in RFC 2026 if you’d like the gory details.

There is also nothing about how well their process actually works.

In my experience, it works very, very well.

]]> By: Larry Sanger http://blog.citizendium.org/2007/04/29/digitizing-parliamentary-procedure/#comment-10405 Larry Sanger Mon, 30 Apr 2007 04:11:47 +0000 http://blog.citizendium.org/2007/04/29/digitizing-parliamentary-procedure/#comment-10405 Thanks, Ted! Nice to see you're paying attention! What I take from your slides is that the IETF (http://www.ietf.org/) has a procedure to come to decisions online. But your description of their rules is pretty slight on the details. There is also nothing about how well their process actually works. Thanks, Ted! Nice to see you’re paying attention!

What I take from your slides is that the IETF (http://www.ietf.org/) has a procedure to come to decisions online. But your description of their rules is pretty slight on the details. There is also nothing about how well their process actually works.

]]> By: Edward O'Connor http://blog.citizendium.org/2007/04/29/digitizing-parliamentary-procedure/#comment-10389 Edward O'Connor Mon, 30 Apr 2007 03:12:55 +0000 http://blog.citizendium.org/2007/04/29/digitizing-parliamentary-procedure/#comment-10389 Hey Larry, ltns... re: adopting RR etc. to the web, this is something I've been toying with for some time now. I did a talk exploring some of the issues at BarCamp LA last fall; slides here: http://edward.oconnor.cx/2006/11/DIY-standards-body Hey Larry, ltns…

re: adopting RR etc. to the web, this is something I’ve been toying with for some time now. I did a talk exploring some of the issues at BarCamp LA last fall; slides here:

http://edward.oconnor.cx/2006/11/DIY-standards-body

]]>