Comments on: The Internet and the Future of Civilization http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=328 Weblog about the Citizendium project and its Citizens. Tue, 24 Nov 2009 00:05:21 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: Citizendium Blog » Are you disillusioned with Web 2.0? http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=328#comment-219288 Citizendium Blog » Are you disillusioned with Web 2.0? Sat, 23 May 2009 19:11:24 +0000 http://blog.citizendium.org/2008/07/29/the-internet-and-the-future-of-civilization/#comment-219288 [...] have written and spoken about the individual impact of the Internet a fair bit as well. See 1, 2, 3, [...] [...] have written and spoken about the individual impact of the Internet a fair bit as well. See 1, 2, 3, [...]

]]> By: Citizendium Blog » How to keep Google from making us stupid http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=328#comment-143094 Citizendium Blog » How to keep Google from making us stupid Thu, 21 Aug 2008 21:42:02 +0000 http://blog.citizendium.org/2008/07/29/the-internet-and-the-future-of-civilization/#comment-143094 [...] texts — that would mean the end of liberal education.  I elaborated the point in ”The Internet and the Future of Civilization“ (lightly revised and reposted on the Britannica Blog), where I say: My concern is not [...] [...] texts — that would mean the end of liberal education.  I elaborated the point in ”The Internet and the Future of Civilization“ (lightly revised and reposted on the Britannica Blog), where I say: My concern is not [...]

]]> By: Lewis http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=328#comment-133693 Lewis Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:59:09 +0000 http://blog.citizendium.org/2008/07/29/the-internet-and-the-future-of-civilization/#comment-133693 If you're interested in hearing more from Clay Shirky, there is a great dialogue between him and Daniel Goleman entitled "Socially Intelligent Computing." I found it available at www.morethansound.net. If you’re interested in hearing more from Clay Shirky, there is a great dialogue between him and Daniel Goleman entitled “Socially Intelligent Computing.” I found it available at http://www.morethansound.net.

]]> By: Larry Sanger http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=328#comment-133643 Larry Sanger Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:36:47 +0000 http://blog.citizendium.org/2008/07/29/the-internet-and-the-future-of-civilization/#comment-133643 Well, if there's an adversarial relationship posited between the new culture and the old, the people doing the positing would be Carr and Shirky. My precise position is that there need be no adversarial relationship; that's what I implied in my last paragraph above, more or less. Again, I agree that Shirky surely does not believe that books are obsolete. And yet it seems to follow from everything else that he does say, as I explained in my earlier Britannica Blog post. Well, if there’s an adversarial relationship posited between the new culture and the old, the people doing the positing would be Carr and Shirky. My precise position is that there need be no adversarial relationship; that’s what I implied in my last paragraph above, more or less.

Again, I agree that Shirky surely does not believe that books are obsolete. And yet it seems to follow from everything else that he does say, as I explained in my earlier Britannica Blog post.

]]> By: Ben Yates http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=328#comment-133625 Ben Yates Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:41:04 +0000 http://blog.citizendium.org/2008/07/29/the-internet-and-the-future-of-civilization/#comment-133625 Well, okay, but I still think you're setting up too adversarial of a relationship between the new culture and the old, the individual and the collective, etc. I don't think Clay Shirky (for example) would say that books are obsolete -- that <i>would</i> be horrifying; it would mean that we had become amnesiacs. Who wants that? For me, at least half the fun of wikipedia is the window it gives into the minds of <i>individuals</i> -- if you know where to look, you can see the imprint of a whole bunch of different people and cultures and ideas on a single article. That's what makes it better than dry data: you get the subject and the object, or something. (Of course, it goes the other way, too: if you're reading a book by a single author, you also get insight into that author's background, parent culture, etc.) Well, okay, but I still think you’re setting up too adversarial of a relationship between the new culture and the old, the individual and the collective, etc. I don’t think Clay Shirky (for example) would say that books are obsolete — that would be horrifying; it would mean that we had become amnesiacs. Who wants that?

For me, at least half the fun of wikipedia is the window it gives into the minds of individuals — if you know where to look, you can see the imprint of a whole bunch of different people and cultures and ideas on a single article. That’s what makes it better than dry data: you get the subject and the object, or something.

(Of course, it goes the other way, too: if you’re reading a book by a single author, you also get insight into that author’s background, parent culture, etc.)

]]> By: Citizendium Blog » An exercise for the reader http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=328#comment-133344 Citizendium Blog » An exercise for the reader Wed, 30 Jul 2008 03:10:46 +0000 http://blog.citizendium.org/2008/07/29/the-internet-and-the-future-of-civilization/#comment-133344 [...] for the reader: compare and contrast the radical, dystopian, Internet-inspired futures imagined by Clay Shirky and Mark Pesce. Note some subtle rhetorical similarities: the notion of historical inevitability; [...] [...] for the reader: compare and contrast the radical, dystopian, Internet-inspired futures imagined by Clay Shirky and Mark Pesce. Note some subtle rhetorical similarities: the notion of historical inevitability; [...]

]]> By: Ben Yates http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=328#comment-133318 Ben Yates Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:12:32 +0000 http://blog.citizendium.org/2008/07/29/the-internet-and-the-future-of-civilization/#comment-133318 I think it's a mistake to frame things in terms of "cultured" and "uncultured". We shouldn't be aiming to become "respectable", as defined by a singular standard, but to <i>understand the world as completely as possible</i> -- in other words, to become wise. I also think society tends to correct itself -- maybe it isn't apparent for awhile that the blogosphere frantically jumps at each new subject, but eventually people catch on, and frantically jumping at subjects becomes less cool. Similarly, being cut off in your own little iPod world isn't good for you -- and that eventually becomes apparent; iPods will become less cool. (Lucky for apple, they switched to social devices; i.e. phones.) I think it’s a mistake to frame things in terms of “cultured” and “uncultured”. We shouldn’t be aiming to become “respectable”, as defined by a singular standard, but to understand the world as completely as possible — in other words, to become wise.

I also think society tends to correct itself — maybe it isn’t apparent for awhile that the blogosphere frantically jumps at each new subject, but eventually people catch on, and frantically jumping at subjects becomes less cool.

Similarly, being cut off in your own little iPod world isn’t good for you — and that eventually becomes apparent; iPods will become less cool. (Lucky for apple, they switched to social devices; i.e. phones.)

]]> By: Larry Sanger http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=328#comment-133332 Larry Sanger Tue, 29 Jul 2008 23:42:33 +0000 http://blog.citizendium.org/2008/07/29/the-internet-and-the-future-of-civilization/#comment-133332 About framing in terms of "cultured," I get your point, but why think that I meant "respectable" by "cultured"? That is only one connotation of the term, not what the term denotes. I think "cultured" denotes more or less what you want me to say: full of understanding of the culture. I added a little to the text to make this clearer. About the rest: I hope you're right. And probably, you are. About framing in terms of “cultured,” I get your point, but why think that I meant “respectable” by “cultured”? That is only one connotation of the term, not what the term denotes. I think “cultured” denotes more or less what you want me to say: full of understanding of the culture. I added a little to the text to make this clearer.

About the rest: I hope you’re right. And probably, you are.

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