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	<title>Comments on: Episteme issue about Wikipedia appears</title>
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	<link>http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=417</link>
	<description>Weblog about the Citizendium project and its Citizens.</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 00:22:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: La Wikipedia: expertos y aficionados &#171; Clionauta: Blog de Historia</title>
		<link>http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=417#comment-200313</link>
		<dc:creator>La Wikipedia: expertos y aficionados &#171; Clionauta: Blog de Historia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 08:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=417#comment-200313</guid>
		<description>[...] en filosofía y un particular interés en la epistemología - ofrece lo que él llama &#8220;un trabajo de filosofía académica&#8221;   sobre el &#8220;potencial epistémico de la Wikipedia&#8221;. En realidad, toda la [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] en filosofía y un particular interés en la epistemología - ofrece lo que él llama &#8220;un trabajo de filosofía académica&#8221;   sobre el &#8220;potencial epistémico de la Wikipedia&#8221;. En realidad, toda la [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Mabel</title>
		<link>http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=417#comment-199750</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Mabel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Mar 2009 00:42:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=417#comment-199750</guid>
		<description>I think the most insightful thing here is your remark about the quality of a Wikipedia article tending to follow "random walk around the highest level of quality permitted by the most persistent and aggressive people who follow an article." There are serious problems with Wikipedia articles in areas where people are willing to aggressively push poorly grounded theses. They wear out the patience of the people who know what they are talking about. This is especially true on topics that are abstract enough that it is hard to find definitive authorities. This is why I don't think Wikipedia under its current rules is equipped to build and sustain a good article on (for example) liberalism, but it can actually produce quite good articles on any number of prominent liberal thinkers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the most insightful thing here is your remark about the quality of a Wikipedia article tending to follow &#8220;random walk around the highest level of quality permitted by the most persistent and aggressive people who follow an article.&#8221; There are serious problems with Wikipedia articles in areas where people are willing to aggressively push poorly grounded theses. They wear out the patience of the people who know what they are talking about. This is especially true on topics that are abstract enough that it is hard to find definitive authorities. This is why I don&#8217;t think Wikipedia under its current rules is equipped to build and sustain a good article on (for example) liberalism, but it can actually produce quite good articles on any number of prominent liberal thinkers.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Jackson</title>
		<link>http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=417#comment-197866</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Jackson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=417#comment-197866</guid>
		<description>Another point. Scholars often are unaware of each other's work (eg Mendel). Wiki allows massive resources to be brought to bear to deal with this, in principle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another point. Scholars often are unaware of each other&#8217;s work (eg Mendel). Wiki allows massive resources to be brought to bear to deal with this, in principle.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Jackson</title>
		<link>http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=417#comment-197865</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Jackson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=417#comment-197865</guid>
		<description>The comment above about out-of-context citations could be amplified. The fact is that scholars, at least in the humanities, often use language loosely: they don't really mean what they appear to be saying. Wikipedia's verifiability policy doesn't take account of this, except where the discrepancy is itself verifiable: the author says at the start "When I say this I mean that"; or a reviw in a reliable source mentions it. 

The Citizendium system should be abole to deal with this. However, it can only work in those areas where expert editors are actually there. Some weeks ago I posted a request for editor assistance on the talk page of every editor in the workgroup. So far no replies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The comment above about out-of-context citations could be amplified. The fact is that scholars, at least in the humanities, often use language loosely: they don&#8217;t really mean what they appear to be saying. Wikipedia&#8217;s verifiability policy doesn&#8217;t take account of this, except where the discrepancy is itself verifiable: the author says at the start &#8220;When I say this I mean that&#8221;; or a reviw in a reliable source mentions it. </p>
<p>The Citizendium system should be abole to deal with this. However, it can only work in those areas where expert editors are actually there. Some weeks ago I posted a request for editor assistance on the talk page of every editor in the workgroup. So far no replies.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Sanger</title>
		<link>http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=417#comment-197687</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Sanger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:03:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=417#comment-197687</guid>
		<description>Anthony, very interesting points -- I didn't think to include "pedagogic superlativeness" as an epistemic virtue, but of course you're quite right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anthony, very interesting points &#8212; I didn&#8217;t think to include &#8220;pedagogic superlativeness&#8221; as an epistemic virtue, but of course you&#8217;re quite right.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=417#comment-197609</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Feb 2009 04:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=417#comment-197609</guid>
		<description>Thanks for putting in the effort to write "THE FATE OF EXPERTISE AFTER WIKIPEDIA" (EPISTEME 2009 DOI: 10.3366/E1742360008000543).  Made sense to me.  A few comments:

Re: “For now at least, there seems to be a continuing demand for more authoritative information sources.”

Personally, I demand not only authoritativeness - well established - but also pedagogic superlativeness.  What good can I assign to explanation, if the explainer lacks explanatory skill, pedagogically speaking?

Re: “Nevertheless, I plausibly assume that various classes of certified professionals, and some others said to be “experts” or “authorities,” have a role in society of articulating what is known in their fields or
industries.”

I would include as experts many popular science writers, for example, who cannot claim certification as a professional in the field they write about, but whose ability to research a subject, put the issue together coherently, in a way the reader can verify for herself, with style and grace and explanatory excellence.

Re: “Wikipedia’s “Verifiability” policy holds that “material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published
source using an inline citation.””

Even so, "reliable, published" sources may find themselves abused by interpretations 'out-of-context', or abused by reader bias, or even by malicious intent.

Anthony.Sebastian</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for putting in the effort to write &#8220;THE FATE OF EXPERTISE AFTER WIKIPEDIA&#8221; (EPISTEME 2009 DOI: 10.3366/E1742360008000543).  Made sense to me.  A few comments:</p>
<p>Re: “For now at least, there seems to be a continuing demand for more authoritative information sources.”</p>
<p>Personally, I demand not only authoritativeness - well established - but also pedagogic superlativeness.  What good can I assign to explanation, if the explainer lacks explanatory skill, pedagogically speaking?</p>
<p>Re: “Nevertheless, I plausibly assume that various classes of certified professionals, and some others said to be “experts” or “authorities,” have a role in society of articulating what is known in their fields or<br />
industries.”</p>
<p>I would include as experts many popular science writers, for example, who cannot claim certification as a professional in the field they write about, but whose ability to research a subject, put the issue together coherently, in a way the reader can verify for herself, with style and grace and explanatory excellence.</p>
<p>Re: “Wikipedia’s “Verifiability” policy holds that “material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published<br />
source using an inline citation.””</p>
<p>Even so, &#8220;reliable, published&#8221; sources may find themselves abused by interpretations &#8216;out-of-context&#8217;, or abused by reader bias, or even by malicious intent.</p>
<p>Anthony.Sebastian</p>
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		<title>By: Nihiltres</title>
		<link>http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=417#comment-197537</link>
		<dc:creator>Nihiltres</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 20:30:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=417#comment-197537</guid>
		<description>That was certainly an interesting read. :)

On a general level, I agree with the majority of the points you make in the first three sections, in particular the conclusion that 'ultimately, the credibility of 
Wikipedia remains “tethered” to expert opinion'. I did find, however, that the "Wikipedia Potential Thesis" sidetracked somewhat one of the main issues. The question of whether authority for experts is ultimately unnecessary if Wikipedia succeeds in its primary goal is peripheral to the question of whether an (officially?) authoritative role for experts is necessary for that goal.

In section four, I found that the argument became less convincing. While the problems of the dominance of the persistent and the enforceability of restrictions &#38; punishments are certainly valid, the usefulness of Citizendium's (CZ) policies as a solution is dubious, especially insofar as it disrupts that strength of openness you mention near the start. For all that CZ has grown, it would be unrealistic, to say the least, that the scale of the growth corresponds to the growth of Wikipedia. In my opinion, this comparison, for all that it might be invalidated by any number of factors, illustrates a constructive value of openness reasonably well. I mean to say that while CZ's policies may be (prima facie) effective, there are surely other methods of dealing with the problem which do not have nearly as many detrimental side-effects.

I haven't read any of the other articles yet, but this one certainly reminds me of the usefulness of considering the core problems of openness and how they can be dealt with. If the concerns you raise in section four could be solved, or more likely, alleviated, without causing the project to be significantly less open, it would be a significant improvement for Wikipedia, its quality, and its reputation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was certainly an interesting read. <img src='http://blog.citizendium.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>On a general level, I agree with the majority of the points you make in the first three sections, in particular the conclusion that &#8216;ultimately, the credibility of<br />
Wikipedia remains “tethered” to expert opinion&#8217;. I did find, however, that the &#8220;Wikipedia Potential Thesis&#8221; sidetracked somewhat one of the main issues. The question of whether authority for experts is ultimately unnecessary if Wikipedia succeeds in its primary goal is peripheral to the question of whether an (officially?) authoritative role for experts is necessary for that goal.</p>
<p>In section four, I found that the argument became less convincing. While the problems of the dominance of the persistent and the enforceability of restrictions &amp; punishments are certainly valid, the usefulness of Citizendium&#8217;s (CZ) policies as a solution is dubious, especially insofar as it disrupts that strength of openness you mention near the start. For all that CZ has grown, it would be unrealistic, to say the least, that the scale of the growth corresponds to the growth of Wikipedia. In my opinion, this comparison, for all that it might be invalidated by any number of factors, illustrates a constructive value of openness reasonably well. I mean to say that while CZ&#8217;s policies may be (prima facie) effective, there are surely other methods of dealing with the problem which do not have nearly as many detrimental side-effects.</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t read any of the other articles yet, but this one certainly reminds me of the usefulness of considering the core problems of openness and how they can be dealt with. If the concerns you raise in section four could be solved, or more likely, alleviated, without causing the project to be significantly less open, it would be a significant improvement for Wikipedia, its quality, and its reputation.</p>
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